I'm new to the forums and hope you don't mind me joining, I really don't know much about building kit cars but reading over your past writings I'm already starting to learn a bit more I love the idea about building your own car and i do have a bit of knowledge of automobile power plants so if i can be any help i'll try and i hope to learn more and maybe helping others as i do so btw lol meat how in the heck do you know so much?

First of all, what kind of a kit are you looking to build..

There's a HUGE support base for the FFR - I would recommend www.CobraForum.com over any of the rest. The reason for this is because you'll get less "you'll forget about xxx when you drive your car" and they don't edit the posts. If you post on at least one of the other forums, they will edit your post if it doesn't reflect brightly on FFR. I would recommend staying away from ANY forum that is sponsored by a manufacturer and dedicated solely to it's product; you're not going to get 'the whole picture.'

Also, if you need it, I have the entire CobraForum archives on CD so that you can look up any issue you may have right from that CD.

And, finally, I have an FFR, and know some of the best and most talented builders out there. If you have any questions about the FFR, feel free to ask.

Your pal,
Meat.

What's your FFR number?

The reason I ask is because I've been around since the first FFRs started rolling out (the FFR I have is being rebuilt from an older kit).

The FFR can be built from the kit they supply you, and one donor car. It's not a complete kit as they advertise, though.

But the kit is easy to assemble, and the product quality is much improved over what it used to be.

As far as the TCR offering...well, it's just a Shell Valley. I can't imagine buying a kit from a third party, when the parent company offers the same thing, and probably knows their kits as well as - if not better than - the third party. Plus, who knows how long this new company is going to be around? Who's going to help out if they fold?

Further...Classic Motor Carriages (CMC) advertised heavily in all of the magazines. Team C advertises heavily. Coincidence?

Your pal,
Meat.

I've had a hand in building up a few FFRs, and I've seen a HUGE number of them either built or being built. The doors are easy to fit, and making the parts match up isn't a big deal at all. If you had as much trouble as you say you did, then perhaps you need to only purchase complete cars from companies like Ford, Chevy, Nissan or Toyota from now on. Then you won't have trouble with the doors.

The trunk I've got - an early one - is lined; it's got an aluminum panel fiberglassed in. The hood, well, you didn't address the most glaring and obvious problem with the old ones, so once again, I'll go with a "you don't have an FFR," and take your criticism with a monsterous grain of salt.

I absolutely believe that your recommendation to purchase a Team-C car is not at all a good one; if I can't believe you have an FFR, then I will not believe that your recommendation to purchase a TCR car is anything other than a misguided attempt at being a shill, and to cast dispersions on another company in the hopes of furthering that sales pitch.

I myself have had issues with FFR - and with David Smith, personally. But the issues you raise are absolutely not issues at all; they're imaginary. You obviously do not know what you're talking about when it comes to the FFR Roadster. You talk about the price of the FFR, and then say that you didn't purchase the kit from FFR? Options? You don't know what you're talking about.

As much as this may make me seem like I'm defending the FFR flag like one of the FFR brown shirts, I'm not; I'm neither defending FFR nor a brown shirt - they don't like me (I don't put up with their B.S. either). The FFR product is not perfect. But it's nothing like what you say it is, and I will not tolerate 'bait and switch' sales tactics from some TCR shill. That's not how this industry - MY industry - will operate.

If you can't provide an FFR number, then you don't have an FFR. Everything you say - or have said - about the FFR is suspect.

Your pal,
Meat.

The FFR isn't the be-all, end-all of Cobra replicas, but it's not nearly what's been reported here.

I'm into my FFR (tear-down of fire-damaged parts, suspension rework) about 18 hours. I'll probably be into it a good 40 hours by the time I get it done (finished and painted).

I've seen an FFR completed in a single day, and driven that car a number of times. You can't do that with any other 'kit' car that's built on a custom chassis.

Your pal,
Meat.

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"...BTW Meat, where's your serial # and pics?..."

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How can anyone argue with this?

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It is abhorrent that you would recommend a kit you know nothing about, and attack another manufacturer about their product - which you also know nothing about. And then you would completely mislabel a correction from me as something that it's not. The only thing you've done is provide me with an excellent example of what is wrong with this industry. Why no one should ever just take the word of someone on the internet.

Purchasing a kit car - whether it's a rebody, a full custom kit, or even a turnkey car - is a HUGE investment of time and (often) money. I would never tell someone to look into ANY kit that I myself have never seen or purchased, or give ANY recommendation to purchase said kit. Why? Because every negative comment, every unbuilt kit, every marriage that ends in divorce because of that kit is another nail in the coffin of the kit car industry. It's another person going out and purchasing a Corvette or a Harley. It's just more negative feedback to an industry that has suffered more black eyes than necessary because people - like you, stephenbl - don't know what they're talking about when they open their mouth. I could care less whether you've built a single Gazelle or a million Gazelles: you don't know what you're talking about in relation to the FFR, and certainly the TCR. You have no business making a recommendation to purchase one over the other based on your experience with a Street Beast, EM, or any other product other than the FFR AND the TCR. You are entitled to your experienced OPINION - but since you have no experienced opinion with both of the Cobra replicas, please feel free to keep your mouth shut until such time as you do.

As far as a degree goes...well, I had a salesman come to my door a week ago selling oil paintings door to door. He's got two degrees from SDSU. Degrees don't mean you know what you're talking about, they mean that you know how to take a test or two. I don't have a degree, and I've built an FFR. Of course, I've been around the industry for almost 25 years, too. That doesn't mean I know anything about the TCR car.

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...Factory Five advertises heavier than all the others...

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...As I mentioned, no door, even the one's provided by the big automakers, fit out of the box, so it's hard to expect a small manufacturer to be able to pull this off....

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Mike Everson has built an FFR or two that I know about. His reputation is above reproach. While he may not approve of me, or my postings over at CF (I noticed that you didn't have a link to there or my site, Mike!), he has always treated me - and everyone I've encountered who has done business with him - with respect, and has provided excellent advice, service and products.

You want to attack someone else? Bring it on. But here are a few things you may wish to remember the next time:

Fishing Expeditions: Unless you are absolutely sure that the person doesn't have what they say they have, it's idiotic to use an argument like "BTW Meat, where's your serial # and pics? Because if the person can provide the requested data, then you don't look all that bright, and lose credibility.

Me So Smart: Pulling out degrees and experience isn't always the smartest thing to do. Lots of people have degrees. Lots of people have experience. Not all of the degree or all of the experience is applicable. If the 'smartness' isn't applicable to the argument, pulling it out and parading it doesn't do anything except impress the yokels. If the person you're arguing with isn't a yokel, you've made a pretty serious blunder.

Bait and Switch: Also known as the 'Wizard of Oz' play. This is usually employed when you're losing an argument. You attempt to deflect focus away from the main thrust of the argument by providing something completely off-topic. Like, for instance, a list of parts that come in a TCR kit. Once you do this, the opponent - if they're at all smart - know they've won. "Pay no mind to the man behind the curtain, I am the Great And Powerful Oz" really doesn't mean much when you're talking about something else.

I wish you better luck in the future.

Your pal,
Meat.

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"...I’m not going to waste much more time on this topic..."

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Plus, FFCobra 'lifted' a mailing list as well as most of their information from another - unbiased - Cobra website; www.CobraForum.com. I have never posted - nor will I ever post - on a rip-off site like that. For a complete - unbiased - review of the Cobra forums, go to my site, www.CobraTrader.com and look at the following page:

http://www.cobratrader.com/forums.html

And, if you want to know the real story behind Meat's Briquette, from start to the last time I worked on it (a month ago):

http://www.cobraforum.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2888;start=0
http://www.cobraforum.com/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=7883;start=0

Unlike others, I actually have an FFR, and did document it.

Your pal,
Meat.

Your pal,
Meat.

I joined recently to learn about building my first Cobra. It will not be the first car I've built but the first kitcar I've built. I have built several steel bodied street rods, a couple Mustangs, and a couple Volkswagens. They were all good cars that brought good money when I tired of them.

Mr. Meat you have never proven that you have a FFCobra or have even seen one for that matter. The proof is tough for anyone to do through the wonders of the Internet. Stephenbl has invited the reader to browse the information contained within the links he's provided and make their OWN conclusions. You've done little but declare him an idiot and a liar repeatedly. Makes you look like quite an idiot in fact.

As a potential buyer and builder of my first kit car I have found stephenbl's information to be quite useful and helpful. If this is in fact the purpose of this Cobra discussion group then I suggest the owners of this group ban you from here as well because you do the owners' readers a great injustice.

Obviously stephenbl has taken the time to support his side of the debate with links and information while you tried your best to distract the readers with B.S. I think the links build a strong case that shows that folks on other Cobra lists find you obnoxious and full of **** too frankly.

I think the point of lists like these are to educate the newbies with honest, substantial information (based in valuable fact) and share good techniques with the experts. You - sir have not done this at all.

I think it is time for you to buy and build your first Cobra kit car you that you can begin building your background of experience. From reading your posts Mr. Meat I surmise that you just might be a 15 year old kid dreaming about their first car.

Furthermore if the burnt Cobra is really an example of your work then your build quality leaves ALOT to be desired (i.e. the cause of the fire). Would you like to tell us more about your fire?

HBCMILLS

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"...I joined recently..."

- HBCMILLS

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"...Is this the best comback you could come up with? Sounds like you're giving up..."

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Here's what I see:

stephenbl has done something you haven't, all along: provided evidence and support for what he said. He provided links to information on all counts. He provided useful quotes from others regarding not only your forum practices, but your car as well.

What have you provided? Nothing. Your "well-documented" project car's links wouldn't even work, and I tried in different browsers. So, you've shown us nothing. I do believe you own the heap of junk you claim to, but that's all I believe.

Point is, stephenbl has tried to calmly and rationally make statements based on experience, and has backed them up with usable links and facts. If you'll reread the thread, he provided a post that was HIS TAKE on the FFR, and he is certainly entitled to his opinion of his experience. You immediately launched into personal attack mode and tried to discredit him and have him "prove" he in fact owns an FFR. He doesn't owe you a thing, least of all proof. Seems people who attack others or shift the focus away from themselves are just insecure or don't know what they're talking about, and that may be your problem. "Methinks you doth protest too much." If you had nothing to hide, and knew what you were talking about, you could have nicely stated that, "Wow, stephenbl, I'm surprised you've had such a hard time with FFR. My experience is just the opposite for [insert reasons here]. Just goes to show you how everyone's experiences are different."

But, nope. You chose the low road. Thus proving, as you've stated, you can't trust everything you read on the Internet. Give IKON and some of the other folks on the list a little credit for having enough brains to know that.

And after all these shenanigans, I'm pretty sure what they'll know is this: stephenbl, who provided information and links and backed up ALL his arguements with proof, is WAY more credible than you, who merely continue to claim that he is completely discredited and you don't believe. Who cares if you don't believe him? The rest of us do. Maybe you just haven't read all the information he posted. Or maybe you're just not mature enough to have a thoughtful DISCUSSION about the differences in experience. Or maybe you're just not capable of seeing reason. Whatever the case, we're all tired of it.

Meat, get a life. No one cares what you have to say at this point.

BTW, I did just join yesterday, but I've been watching the posts for awhile now. I don't know stephenbl, but you can bet I'll seek his advice in the future. And if you have any useful tips for my first build, regardless of the brand, I'd be happy to hear them. I take everything with a grain of salt, but value everyone's OPINION.

Here's what I see:

stephenbl has done something you haven't, all along: provided evidence and support for what he said. He provided links to information on all counts. He provided useful quotes from others regarding not only your forum practices, but your car as well.

What have you provided? Nothing. Your "well-documented" project car's links wouldn't even work, and I tried in different browsers. So, you've shown us nothing. I do believe you own the heap of junk you claim to, but that's all I believe.

Point is, stephenbl has tried to calmly and rationally make statements based on experience, and has backed them up with usable links and facts. If you'll reread the thread, he provided a post that was HIS TAKE on the FFR, and he is certainly entitled to his opinion of his experience. You immediately launched into personal attack mode and tried to discredit him and have him "prove" he in fact owns an FFR. He doesn't owe you a thing, least of all proof. Seems people who attack others or shift the focus away from themselves are just insecure or don't know what they're talking about, and that may be your problem. "Methinks you doth protest too much." If you had nothing to hide, and knew what you were talking about, you could have nicely stated that, "Wow, stephenbl, I'm surprised you've had such a hard time with FFR. My experience is just the opposite for [insert reasons here]. Just goes to show you how everyone's experiences are different."

But, nope. You chose the low road. Thus proving, as you've stated, you can't trust everything you read on the Internet. Give IKON and some of the other folks on the list a little credit for having enough brains to know that.

And after all these shenanigans, I'm pretty sure what they'll know is this: stephenbl, who provided information and links and backed up ALL his arguements with proof, is WAY more credible than you, who merely continue to claim that he is completely discredited and you don't believe. Who cares if you don't believe him? The rest of us do. Maybe you just haven't read all the information he posted. Or maybe you're just not mature enough to have a thoughtful DISCUSSION about the differences in experience. Or maybe you're just not capable of seeing reason. Whatever the case, we're all tired of it.

Meat, get a life. No one cares what you have to say at this point.

BTW, I did just join yesterday, but I've been watching the posts for awhile now. I don't know stephenbl, but you can bet I'll seek his advice in the future. And if you have any useful tips for my first build, regardless of the brand, I'd be happy to hear them. I take everything with a grain of salt, but value everyone's OPINION.

Here's what I see:

stephenbl has done something you haven't, all along: provided evidence and support for what he said. He provided links to information on all counts. He provided useful quotes from others regarding not only your forum practices, but your car as well.

What have you provided? Nothing. Your "well-documented" project car's links wouldn't even work, and I tried in different browsers. So, you've shown us nothing. I do believe you own the heap of junk you claim to, but that's all I believe.

Point is, stephenbl has tried to calmly and rationally make statements based on experience, and has backed them up with usable links and facts. If you'll reread the thread, he provided a post that was HIS TAKE on the FFR, and he is certainly entitled to his opinion of his experience. You immediately launched into personal attack mode and tried to discredit him and have him "prove" he in fact owns an FFR. He doesn't owe you a thing, least of all proof. Seems people who attack others or shift the focus away from themselves are just insecure or don't know what they're talking about, and that may be your problem. "Methinks you doth protest too much." If you had nothing to hide, and knew what you were talking about, you could have nicely stated that, "Wow, stephenbl, I'm surprised you've had such a hard time with FFR. My experience is just the opposite for [insert reasons here]. Just goes to show you how everyone's experiences are different."

But, nope. You chose the low road. Thus proving, as you've stated, you can't trust everything you read on the Internet. Give IKON and some of the other folks on the list a little credit for having enough brains to know that.

And after all these shenanigans, I'm pretty sure what they'll know is this: stephenbl, who provided information and links and backed up ALL his arguements with proof, is WAY more credible than you, who merely continue to claim that he is completely discredited and you don't believe. Who cares if you don't believe him? The rest of us do. Maybe you just haven't read all the information he posted. Or maybe you're just not mature enough to have a thoughtful DISCUSSION about the differences in experience. Or maybe you're just not capable of seeing reason. Whatever the case, we're all tired of it.

Meat, get a life. No one cares what you have to say at this point.

BTW, I did just join yesterday, but I've been watching the posts for awhile now. I don't know stephenbl, but you can bet I'll seek his advice in the future. And if you have any useful tips for my first build, regardless of the brand, I'd be happy to hear them. I take everything with a grain of salt, but value everyone's OPINION.

Sorry about that!

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"...Meat,

Here's what I see..."

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And, sad as it may be for you, I'm no more stephenbl than you are a man of intelligence, sense or wit.

Once again, get a life.

Oh, yeah--and don't write angry!
Your "pal"
hbcmills

Personally, I think Meat was easy on that idiot. I have met those types before and it sickens me because there are so many things (and people) trying to drag the kit car industry down. They speak out of their a$$ without any real knowledge of what they speak.

As far as degrees are concerned, I am a software engineer for a major telecom. I have no degree but have far surpassed my degreed peers. The degree is a great tool to get your foot in the door. But you knowledge, common sense, sheer ability, etc. is what keeps you there and allows you to excel. By the way, Bill Gates founded Microsoft after dropping out of college. I wonder if anyone cares about his degree?

As for degrees. In this business they are of little or no use whatsoever. It's purely down to mechanical aptitude and the right frame of mind. I have no degree but have designed and built my own car from scratch.

All the best Meat.

GavinR

Your pal,
Meat.

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"...Amazing!

There's a company selling both hoods and trunk lids that have inner liners for the Factory Five Cobras!..."

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"...Amazing!

There's a company selling both hoods and trunk lids that have inner liners for the Factory Five Cobras!..."

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